Curious Objects: Secret History of a Windsor Chair

Sammy Dalati Curious Objects


Photograph courtesy of Michael Pashby Antiques


Benjamin Miller, host of The Magazine ANTIQUES’ podcast Curious Objects, interviewed Michael Pashby of Michael Pashby Antiques about a Windsor chair with interesting history. Made about 1790 by Gillows, it’s composed primarily of ash and has a sycamore seat. Listen to the full episode here, on iTunes, or on SoundCloud, and read the transcript below.

Michael Pashby had a long career in the magazine publishing industry in both Europe and North America, which included being president and publisher of Arts and Antiques Group. In 1992 Pashby founded Michael Pashby Antiques in New York, which advises international clients and trades in fine English furniture with specializations in early oak and walnut, colonial pieces, and the works of Gillows of Lancaster and London.

Benjamin Miller: [00:00:09] Welcome to the very first episode of Curious Objects and the stories behind them, brought to you by The Magazine ANTIQUES. I’m your host, Ben Miller, and today I’m talking with a New York City dealer named Michael Pashby. Michael handles superb English furniture, but we’re speaking about a piece with humble connotations: a Windsor chair, made by a company that I’ve come to think of as the Ikea of 18th century. I don’t mean the quality, but their vertical integration of materials manufacturing and distribution. So it’s a really interesting slice of history, and Michael is a true connoisseur and he taught me a lot I didn’t know about the complexity of this seemingly simple form. If you’d like to see a picture of the chair I encourage you to visit where you’ll find images and links. Now, this is a new podcast and I’m counting on your feedback to make it better. So if you have suggestions for guests or comments on an episode or anything else you’d like to say, please send an e-mail to I will read your e-mail and I will do my best to respond. I really appreciate it. Finally, it will really help me to get the word out and share stories like this with more people if you leave a rating on iTunes or whatever app you’re using to listen. Okay, let’s get started.

Benjamin Miller: [00:01:29] Michael Pashby, thanks for joining me.

Michael Pashby: [00:01:31] My pleasure.

Benjamin Miller: [00:01:32] We are here to talk about a chair.

Michael Pashby: [00:01:35] We are. And it’s a very simple chair and it’s commonly called a Windsor chair, and it’s very simple one but has a very interesting story behind it.

Benjamin Miller: [00:01:45] And for the benefit of our listeners who unfortunately can’t see us through this microphone, could you give a physical description of that chair?

Michael Pashby: [00:01:53] Well, it’s what one would normally understand as a Windsor chair. It’s got four legs, obviously, but these are particularly well-splayed legs so it gives it stability. It has spindles to the back, a hooped back, a curved arm, a flat, curved seat—shaped seat—and it’s got a very interesting stretcher to the base which is a very shallow curve to the stretcher with supports going to the rear legs. And all of the legs have got very, very fine turning to them. So, it’s a standard Windsor chair. A Windsor chair is a very interesting thing because most of them are not from Windsor. This type of chair was made in the area of the Thames Valley. The market town of the Thames Valley was Windsor, and chairs were moved to other parts of the country through the market town. And because it was on the Thames they could be shipped to any part of London or elsewhere in the country.

Benjamin Miller: [00:02:52] So the name “Windsor” actually relates to their commercial distribution rather than the actual point of origin.

Michael Pashby: [00:02:57] And I think people at the time said, “oh the chair’s from Windsor, and over time chairs which were made in Wales or in the north of England all became known—because of the distinctive look at these chairs—they all became known as Windsor chairs. But this one is made of indigenous woods, it’s made of beech, ash—primarily of ash. And ash was a very good wood to be steamed and turned, and the seat is, interestingly, is of Sycamore which would indicate that the chair actually had been painted at some stage. Because if it was a much higher quality piece it would have either been elm to the seat, or cherry, something that was more expensive. Now what’s interesting about this chair is it’s made by Gillows.

Benjamin Miller: [00:03:43] Right, and this is a firm that you collect a variety of objects from. Is that right?

Michael Pashby: [00:03:45] Correct. I mean, some years ago I became interested in Gillows because I’d seen so much of their furniture and it was of such high quality and yet no one really knew or understood them. They weren’t a household name [like] Chippendale, Sheraton, Mayhew—any of those major makers were. And I was looking into it: Why doesn’t this company have more of a profile? It’s really quite interesting. First is, because they were very, very protective of the things that they made, and other companies, well, like Chippendale for instance, published many books of his designs.

Benjamin Miller: [00:04:26] Sure, books that are still used by carpenters today.

Michael Pashby: [00:04:29] Books that are still used. And most of the furniture makers who are so well-known today are well-known because of their publications. Gillows never published a thing.

Benjamin Miller: [00:04:38] Was that to protect their trade secrets do you think?

Michael Pashby: [00:04:41] I think it was. I mean, they are a fascinating company! When I started to look into them . . . they were a company that started around 1730 and it was interesting because they were Catholics. The Gillows family was Catholic, and if you remember back in the . . . “if you remember” . . . if you THINK back to those times.

Benjamin Miller: [00:04:58] I remember, of course.

Michael Pashby: [00:04:59] Of course you do. You know, Catholics were not the most popular people in England. There were the insurrections trying to put the Jacobites back on the throne. So they weren’t the most popular people in England.

Benjamin Miller: [00:05:09] To say the least.

Michael Pashby: [00:05:10] To say the least. However, they were from the north of England, up in Lancaster, in the way north of England, and they did have the following of the Catholic nobility and the Catholic gentry in the north of England, and they made a very good business being patronized by fellow Catholics and they also developed what I would say was probably one of the first totally integrated multinational companies in producing their furniture.

Benjamin Miller: [00:05:39] Really?

Michael Pashby: [00:05:40] They bought the woods in South America for the fine furniture they were using [making?], they owned the ships that went out to harvest the woods in South America—they brought them back—they had designers on their staff, they had the factories making the furniture, they had decorators and upholsterers. They controlled every part of the installation of the furniture.

Benjamin Miller: [00:06:03] We’re talking about a very large operation, then.

Michael Pashby: [00:06:05] It grew into a very large operation. As things politically in England calmed down and they became more prominent, they started a huge shop in London and they began stamping their furniture. It was a very rare thing to do in England, to stamp furniture, or even label furniture. They stamped “Gillows Lancaster” on some of their furniture.

Benjamin Miller: [00:06:27] Can I pause you here and ask about the practice of stamping furniture? In many of the decorative arts, artisans like to take credit for their work, put their mark on pieces. Of course, in silver, which is my field, that was legally required.

Michael Pashby: [00:06:41] That was legally required.

Benjamin Miller: [00:06:41] But why would a firm like Chippendale not want to mark their pieces? Wouldn’t that be free advertising for them?

Michael Pashby: [00:06:48] It would be free advertising, but they didn’t. Some people did, some people did put their trade labels on furniture, but there’s only . . . there was Gillows and then later on Holland and Son, who is another maker but more into the nineteenth century, they stamped their furniture as well. It was a very rare thing in England. It was common, obviously, in France. You had to stamp your furniture in France. What you do see in England, and particularly on Gillows furniture as well, is you see sometimes initials stamped on them, and the initials were nothing to do with the fact that it was made by Gillows; those were the journeymen stamping their own initials on the furniture. And the reason they did that was Gillows became such a huge enterprise that they employed pieceworkers all over the country to make things. They would supply drawings for them to follow and the piece makers would make the work. They stamped their work so they could get paid for it.

Benjamin Miller: [00:07:44] Ah, interesting.

Michael Pashby: [00:07:45] Yes.

Benjamin Miller: [00:07:45] So there was almost like turning in your paystub.

Michael Pashby: [00:07:48] Exactly right. So they could say, “Well, six pieces came from this person. We know how much we owe them.”

Benjamin Miller: [00:08:00] Curious Objects is brought to you by S. J. Shrubsole, dealers in antique silver and jewelry in New York. Where else can you buy a spoon that belonged to George Washington, Prince Albert’s prized silver greyhound statue, and a precious necklace by the famed Giuliano? That’s S-H-R-U-B-S-O-L-E dot com.

Benjamin Miller: [00:08:24] And so is this Windsor chair stamped?

Michael Pashby: [00:08:26] This Windsor chair is not. Going back to Gillows, Gillows stayed in the family. It was in the family, in the Gillows family, until the Regency period, around 1815–1816, at which time they sold it to the managers of the company. The family sold it to the managers of the company, and it continued in production until late in the nineteenth century, about 1895.

Benjamin Miller: [00:08:50] Really? At which point it was 150-year-old company.

Michael Pashby: [00:08:52] It was a 150-year-old company, yes. Or more. At which time it had declined and it was taken over by its competitor who was called Waring. From that time on, they made reproduction furniture of prior periods and—

Benjamin Miller: [00:09:06] Reproducing things that had previously been made by the same company.

Michael Pashby: [00:09:10] Correct.

Benjamin Miller: [00:09:10] You see this with Stickley, for example, in modern times.

Michael Pashby: [00:09:13] Exactly right. Unfortunately, Waring and Gillow set up furniture retailers in every town in England, and it was medium quality furniture for the middle class. And so when people saw the name Gillows they didn’t think of it as fine furniture at that time. And so it was not particularly popular to buy Gillows furniture even if it was 200 years old. When Waring and Gillows finally went out of business, which was in the mid ’50’s, what was discovered was a trove of records. They kept records of everything: all of their customers, all of the invoices, all of the designs they made—[a] vast inventory of design. Well, historians are now . . . there have been a number of books published recently about the Gillows history and furniture and design, and there’s still a lot more work to be done. But this chair, an exact design for this chair . . . there are two designs for this chair that were found in the archives: one for about 1796, and one for, I think, 1805–1806. No one outside of Gillows has published or has produced chairs of this particular shape, this particular design.

Benjamin Miller: [00:10:25] Hence the attribution.

Michael Pashby: [00:10:27] Hence the attribution. And what’s fascinating about it, when you go over it, it’s got a sycamore seat which means it must have been either painted or stained initially because it’s not an expensive piece of wood and so it would need to have been painted at the time. If you were making a chair that was of fine quality wood you would use an elm seat at least, and you would have had maybe elm in there, oak in there, beech to the . . . maybe beech to the legs and it would have aged in a different way. What we have found out since doing some research on these is that Gillows, because they were such a entrepreneurial type of company . . . when you’re sending ships to the Caribbean to buy wood, you don’t want to send an empty ship to the Caribbean. You’re sending things in that ship, unloading, and then bringing the wood back. What Gillows did was they shipped furniture. They were a major supplier to South America and North America through the Caribbean. Gillows used their bases in the Caribbean mainly in, I believe, in Jamaica. And there are invoices in their records showing that they sent a lot of Windsor chairs to the Caribbean. Now when they sent those, rather sensibly they didn’t send them as chairs, they sent them in component pieces. They had the pieces turned, they didn’t paint them because if you painted it, it would get chipped. They sent them down and the furniture was like the old Ikea then, I suppose. They were sent down and they were assembled in the Caribbean, and then they used agents in South America and the southern states to sell the furniture on. What I find interesting is that when these would have been painted, either they would have been stained or they would have been painted in green, or some other color (red, white), and one must assume that plenty of these can be found somewhere in America. They haven’t been, because I don’t think people know that these chairs are here and they must be assumed, because of their rather odd shape as well, they may well be assumed to be American—

Benjamin Miller: [00:12:27] American made . . .

Michael Pashby: [00:12:28] American made.

Benjamin Miller: [00:12:29] Interesting.

Michael Pashby: [00:12:30] Particularly if they are painted. Because people wouldn’t necessarily look at the woods. They look at the paint. And they may have been painted in in the US or in . . . I mean they supplied Argentina, they supplied all over the place down there—

Benjamin Miller: [00:12:44] That’s so interesting. You know, of course, we have a similar problem sometimes in silver when unmarked English pieces are thought to have been made by American silversmiths.

Michael Pashby: [00:12:53] Absolutely.

Benjamin Miller: [00:12:53] Which in many cases would seem to make them a lot more valuable.

Michael Pashby: [00:12:56] Correct.

Benjamin Miller: [00:12:57] So there’s a certain motivated reasoning for collectors to want their unmarked silver to be American rather than English.

Michael Pashby: [00:13:03] I like talking about this chair because it is . . . it’s a Windsor chair, which is, you know, a middle-class piece of furniture. It’s not an important piece of furniture, so no one is going to look at it with any great eye, generally, and try to work out all the history of it.

Benjamin Miller: [00:13:20] Right. No, this was the Ikea of the 1790s.

Michael Pashby: [00:13:23] It was the Ikea of the 1790s and it was also a normal piece of furniture. It was just . . . and would people have kept these? Probably not. They may have been handed down, but they weren’t of any . . . they weren’t a great cabinet, they weren’t a great chest of drawers, dining table. It was an ordinary country piece of furniture. But it has a fascinating history and it is so distinctive in the way that it looks that it would be easy to recognize these in American furniture. I haven’t seen them but I’m now beginning to look.

Benjamin Miller: [00:13:51] If listeners keep their eyes peeled maybe they’ll find some samples.

Michael Pashby: [00:13:54] But they need to find . . . they need to find the design source, not just what it looks like. But it is a wonderful chair. When I looked at this, as well, this particular chair had been painted, the wood had been covered in—or had been filled with—a white-lead filler, and underneath . . . to find out if a chair has ever been painted you have to turn it upside down because no one, no one cleans . . . there’s generally very little wear around the tops of the legs of the paint. And this one, it had green paint and at least two layers of green paint on it. There was also a date of 1870—I think it was 1876 or ’78—painted on the bottom which is presumably when someone did a paint job on it. And it finally had a black varnish applied to it, and that black varnish would indicate that it was in England because black varnish was applied to a lot of furniture in the late Victorian times in deference to Queen Victoria after Prince Albert died and lot of furniture was turned black, and was painted, or varnished in black as a memorial to Prince Albert. This piece, it had been in England certainly through the 19th century but it has been to America. One is bound to be able to find these in America and I suspect that they have been attributed as American furniture for some time because no one has really seen the design source until recently.

Benjamin Miller: [00:15:22] What would that do to the value of a piece that had previously been thought to be of American manufacture?

Michael Pashby: [00:15:28] I don’t know what it would do to the value of the piece. Once one knows the maker of something it’s always going to increase interest in the piece. Whether that increases value, I don’t know.

Benjamin Miller: [00:15:38] Sometimes it’s less important who, in particular, is responsible than just having a story about the piece to begin with.

Michael Pashby: [00:15:45] Well, I think every piece of furniture has a story. I mean it’s just finding it. Every piece of furniture you see which is an antique has been through so many owners—or maybe not, maybe just one—but generally have been through a number of owners. And just looking at the surface of the piece, the surface tells a story of it. With, “Has it been touched/has it not been touched; has it been in one position in a house the whole time.” When you see seventeenth century pieces the first thing you always look at is the feet because you know that they were on a stone floor, that someone was mopping around them. So you expect them to—

Benjamin Miller: [00:16:19] They’ve been pushed in and pulled out and kicked and jostled—

Michael Pashby: [00:16:23] —And you expect to see stains to the feet, at the very least, or rot to the feet because of so much water interaction. If you don’t see that then you get seriously worried about the piece.

Benjamin Miller: [00:16:37] I think I don’t mop my floors enough.

Michael Pashby: [00:16:41] Well you can create the seventeenth century effect, though, let’s say. No, but I mean that’s terribly important when you’re looking at a piece: to see, Does it have all the right indications of what it should have?

Courtesy Michael Pashby Antiques

Benjamin Miller: [00:16:58] Thanks to our sponsor for this episode S. J. Shrubsole. Coincidentally my employer, so for once I actually know what I’m talking about. Founded in London in 1912, the firm opened its New York City shop in 1936, and for generations has earned a reputation for expertise and integrity in buying and selling antique silver and jewelry. With clients from Groucho Marx to the Metropolitan Museum, Shrubsole has one of the finest collections of early English and American silver in the world, much of which is online at S-H-R-U-B-S-O-L-E dot com. You’ll find silver and jewelry for the dedicated collector, as well as unique gifts and splendid objects for your home. See it all at

Benjamin Miller: [00:17:45] This idea of every piece of furniture having a story—would you say that’s what draws you to the discipline?

Michael Pashby: [00:17:50] I think so and I think what draws me to the discipline is the quality of the workmanship that went into the piece originally; the change in design; the utilitarian functions of the piece—some of which don’t exist anymore. But the way people worked with their furniture. When you go back to the very earliest times, I mean, it was a table and a few chairs. The things you see most of, though, were the chests, which were to keep valuables, to keep linens, and to be easy to move things around. When you were moving from the court to your country estate, or to . . . you were going out with the army and you would take a chest. There are thousands of chests still extant.

Benjamin Miller: [00:18:34] And you do handle a good deal of campaign furniture.

Michael Pashby: [00:18:38] I handle campaign furniture as well, which I like immensely. I like it because it was the ingenuity of, How do you create the same living conditions when you’re going off to war in Africa or India and you’re representing the empire? How do you take all that same comfort with you? And you know we talked before, not on this, but we talked before about something called Brighton Buns.

Benjamin Miller: [00:19:06] Yes.

Michael Pashby: [00:19:07] Which are fascinating things! You needed to have light. Wherever you were you needed light. Therefore, you needed candles. Obviously, people would take candlesticks with them. If you take candlesticks and they are packed in a boat and then you strap them on the side of an elephant and you have people carrying them up the side of a mountain, guess what? They get crushed. And so a super design came up, a very simple design called Brighton Buns. You could dismantle your candlesticks, place them in the bases, they screwed together, and they were in such a shape that they couldn’t be crushed.

Benjamin Miller: [00:19:40] They looked more or less like a doughnut.

Michael Pashby: [00:19:42] They looked like a doughnut. In England in particular, because so many people were being sent to so many parts of the world—whether it be America, India, Australia, or wherever—they wanted to take modern comforts with them because in most places they were going to there were no suppliers. So there were a number of companies in England that specialized—and Gillows actually took part of that market, as did many other companies—of supplying collapsible, fold-up furniture: chairs which could fold flat, dining tables which could seat twelve but would fold into a case, beds—every sort of need that a gentleman or a lady would need in their travels in India or Australia could be fitted into a small packing case, basically, and could be reassembled on arrival.

Benjamin Miller: [00:20:30] I have to say that strikes me as a particular English-ism: wanting to ride an elephant all day long and then sit down for a cup of tea at the end.

Michael Pashby: [00:20:37] I also know that Napoleon, for instance, had huge amounts of campaign furniture commissioned for his comfort when he was off conquering the rest of Europe.

Benjamin Miller: [00:20:50] Okay, not only the English.

Michael Pashby: [00:20:51] Not only the English. Napoleon as well and I think some other people as well. I think there is some American campaign furniture that is still extant as well.

Benjamin Miller: [00:20:59] Can I ask you a couple of questions about your own story? What was it that . . . you’ve talked a little bit about what motivates you about antique English furniture. How did you get into that? Did you grow up surrounded by antiques?

Michael Pashby: [00:21:09] I did. I did when I lived in England. It was in the house. I was never rich enough to be able to buy it as a young person. I, actually . . . what I did was I went into the publishing industry, initially, and I ended up . . . I had a number of magazines related to the arts field, including a magazine about art and antiques, I had a magazine in Japan, [and] I was constantly traveling to promote the magazine and find advertisers, and I was in this world so much and I just loved touching the pieces and seeing the pieces, and they reminded me so much of what it was like at home and everything else, and one day I just decided that’s what I want to do. It never occurred to me that it was really a business.

Benjamin Miller: [00:22:03] That followed later.

Michael Pashby: [00:22:03] I just thought this is a brave thing to do. And I thought, Of course one does this.

Benjamin Miller: [00:22:07] What a wonderful way to end up in a job.

Michael Pashby: [00:22:09] Exactly. And you learn as you go along. And I learned . . . the one thing I learned was, don’t buy on price, buy on quality, and always, always, always buy exactly what you love. The only times I’ve really made a mistake is when I look at something and I think, I really could sell that soon, and I know people will want that. I don’t like it myself but I know I’ll sell that. And I’ve still got a warehouse full of those pieces.

Benjamin Miller: [00:22:37] Well it’s hard to talk passionately about something that you aren’t passionate about.

Michael Pashby: [00:22:42] That’s right. You’re absolutely right I’m sure someone else may be able to sell that, but not me.

Windsor chair by Gillows of Lancaster and London, c. 1790. Ash with sycamore seat. Courtesy Michael Pashby Antiques.

Benjamin Miller: [00:22:52] Curious Objects is brought to you by S. J. Shrubsole, dealers in antique silver and jewelry in New York. Where else can you buy a spoon that belonged to George Washington, Prince Albert’s prized silver greyhound statue, and a precious necklace by the famed Giuliano? That’s S-H-R-U-B-S-O-L-E dot com.

Benjamin Miller: [00:23:15] Well, now we are talking . . . our listeners are hearing us through the Internet. The Internet has had some serious ramifications for the way that art dealers and antique dealers do business. How has that changed your business over the last ten or twenty years?

Michael Pashby: [00:23:31] I would say that it’s more in the last, actually, five, five to seven years that its had a real impact, because that really has been the growth of the number of websites. I mean the first thing is there is huge transparency now.

Benjamin Miller: [00:23:45] Price transparency.

Michael Pashby: [00:23:46] Price transparency and you can see, virtually, how many pieces there are of any type of item out there. Well, someone once SAID it was rare, [now] you just type that in there and you find that there are a 127 of those being offered for sale around the world. A good analogy with that is I remember many years ago after Andy Warhol died the thought was they’re going to produce the catalogue raisonné of Warhol work. And people were very worried about it because Warhol was incredibly prolific, second only to, I guess, Picasso in the twentieth century. The worry was if you knew that there were 126 similar paintings of Marilyn Monroe, the one you’ve got sitting on your wall doesn’t seem so special anymore. But when the catalogue raisonné was produced. it actually had the opposite effect. Because what it did was it gave people certainty, saying, “I know there’s 126,” you know, “I know there’s going to be no more coming on the market”. So it gave people a certain amount of certainty and it was—

Benjamin Miller: [00:24:49] Interesting.

Michael Pashby: [00:24:50] I mean, you’re always going to have the catalogue raisonnés out there for an artist. It didn’t damage his market. In fact, the Warhol market actually went up.

Benjamin Miller: [00:24:57] Now it can make it more difficult for a dealer to buy well.

Michael Pashby: [00:25:01] However, you have a much greater world of finding things. I mean I have been able to find things in South Africa, in Australia, in southern Portugal, for God’s sake, in South America—furniture which maybe only fifteen or twenty years ago I would never been able to find.

Benjamin Miller: [00:25:19] But someone put a picture of it on the Internet.

Michael Pashby: [00:25:21] Someone put a picture on the Internet, it’s an auction happening there, or a person’s . . . I see an image of someone’s house in one of those places and I see a piece of furniture which I think I would like. I can go out and I can contact those people. So everyone can do that. There’s more transparency in pricing which is good and it’s bad. Ultimately, what dealers do is they add value to the piece in the end. Because when a dealer will sell something a dealer is always going to ensure that they’ve edited. I mean, I see hundreds and hundreds—as you do—hundreds and hundreds of pieces all the time. I’m choosing one, two, or three out of those hundreds. And they have to be the best. They have to be the best. So I’m not offering people a wide range of quality. It’s all of a similar quality. So the work has been done. That’s in the end where we make our profits. We make our profits by providing that value and editing for the collector and for the customer.

Benjamin Miller: [00:26:17] What is one mistake that collectors make that you would caution them to avoid?

Michael Pashby: [00:26:23] I think the biggest mistake a collector will make is purchasing without advice. For us, this is our business. We are recognized experts in certain areas. Collectors often will buy something because the price is right, they’ve been told the story, they like it, whatever it may be. They don’t think and they don’t understand how to look at condition. They may not understand if it’s a rare piece or if it’s common piece. Condition is terribly, terribly important. Many people do not know how to really judge that. And I think when a private person, a collector, buys, for instance, at an auction, they have the feeling that if they’re buying at an auction, they must be getting a bargain. Nothing is furthest from the truth because they have to remember they were the last person to bid if they bought it. That means they paid the highest price for it of anyone who was looking at the piece.

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:15] And all it takes is two people making a mistake.

Michael Pashby: [00:27:17] Two people making a mistake. And that is not uncommon, let’s put it like that. As you know and I know.

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:24] Indeed!

Michael Pashby: [00:27:24] And so when a dealer drops out there’s a reason why the dealer is dropping out.

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:28] That is a good thing to watch out for.

Michael Pashby: [00:27:30] It is indeed.

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:31] Well, Michael Pashby, thank you so much for talking with us. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

Michael Pashby: [00:27:34] No, but I’d love to do this again.

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:37] Fabulous!

Michael Pashby: [00:27:37] Okay!

Benjamin Miller: [00:27:45] That’s it for today. Hope you enjoyed it! Thanks again to Michael and thanks to all of you for listening. As I said before, your ratings on iTunes are a huge help as are your e-mails to Curious Objects is a podcast from The Magazine ANTIQUES. Today’s episode was edited by Sammy Dalati and our music is by Trap Rabbit. I’m Ben Miller and I’ll catch you again next month.

For more Curious Objects with Benjamin Miller, listen to us on iTunes or SoundCloud. If you like what we’re doing, please write a review on Apple Podcasts. Questions or comments? Send us an email at